MUBUTV Insider Podcast Episode Transcript
[Evan Bogart]
[Ritch Esra]: Evan Bogart, welcome to the show.
[Evan Bogart]: Thanks for having me.
[Ritch Esra]: Thank you so much for joining us; you know, I always like to start these conversations with a question that I ask all of the guests, which is, Do you remember at what point in your life that you made the decision that the music business was going to be your professional career path?
[Evan Bogart]: That's a great question; I don't know, did I make a decision? I think I was like destined for that. Is that weird? Do you want me to get real deep right off the bat? Right off the bat, I think there was something about my dad dying when I was four years old that predestined me to follow in his footsteps for some strange and deep reason that maybe made me feel closer to him. But I love music so much. I grew up in a music industry family. My brothers and sisters listen to every kind of music that you could ever think of. My mom and her friends were all in the music industry and songwriters, artists, label executives, and publishers. So I was exposed to a lot in the industry early on. I went to a lot of concerts, and I was the kid in elementary school who would like to have to memorize all the songs. So like at the birthday parties, I knew all the lyrics, and I could impress all the girls. And so I think that I only ever wanted to be in the music industry. I feel like it's like GoodFellas, you know, “As far back as I could remember, I always wanted to be a record man”. You know,, I feel like that's what it was, right I looked up to all of these friends of the family and wanted to go to every concert. When I was sixteen, I started working as an intern at Interscope for half the time for Tom Whalley and half the time for Steve Berman, and then when I was eighteen, I started in the mailroom. I don't think I had a choice, and in high school, I wanted to be a rapper and a DJ and a producer, and I was booking all the bands in high school. One of those bands was called Kara’s Flowers’ which became Maroon 5. I went to high school with Adam and Jesse and Mickey and the original drummer Ryan. Yeah, I don't know if I made the decision; I think I was born with the decision.
[Ritch Esra]: The decision came to you.
[Evan Bogart]: The decision gave me the wand. The wand doesn't choose the wizard or the wand chooses the wizard.
[Eric Knight]: Evan, this is Eric. I can’t even tell you what an honor this is for me for you doing this for us. Your company, Seeker Music, is a modern-day music company encompassing the worlds of publishing, records, and management. Are the boundaries between those three areas of the business blurring in today's business?
[Evan Bogart]: Yeah, I think they are; I mean, for me, my approach to publishing, prior to Seeker, I had worked with a bunch of songwriters, producers, and artists that had been signed to me either for publishing records or management over time, I had been writing songs. So I kinda wore multiple hats at the same time for the last, you know, fifteen-plus years. Like most successful of that has been in 2010. I signed a guy named Rickey Reed and his band Wallpaper and helped develop him from the publishing and record side, and obviously, he has now become his own icon in the making with Lizzo and all the other stuff that he does. But In doing so, I realized that from a songwriter publishing other songwriters, I felt like I was more in managing than publishing. It wasn't about just setting up sessions and pitching songs, or wasn't just like when I was the label side and developing artists like MKTO or Hot Chelle Rae and things like that. It wasn't like I was the label, just like doing label promotions; it was more management, secondary management. So I always say this to people, if you're not publishing like a manager, then you're not really publishing. That, to me, is in the modern-day music sense of what the business has become. It’s strategy, and so if you're not a publisher who has a strategy, you're not a label who has a strategy, and just going through the motions, I feel like you're going to be left behind. So for me, when I work with an artist or writer, or producer, who has a manager, I always offer myself up as secondary management. Involve me in everything, involve me in strategy, involve me in branding like I want me and my team to help. Even if we are publishing one share of a song, we have this one songwriter who has a fifth of a song, were picking up the phone and calling DSPS and pitching for playlists. Like it's in our best interests that we're doing that kind of work, and I think it's that extra mile of strategy and branding that goes along from the publisher and the record side that feels like management. So yeah, I think they're all a blur now. I think they're all the same job. It just depends on what role you have the opportunity to play.
[Ritch Esra]: Picking up on that, Evan, you know, with what you were just saying, you describe the modern climate of today’s - the reality of today’s business. I'm curious, from your point of view, do you think that this is a healthy time right now for the music industry?
[Evan Bogart]: Oh, God! That's kind of a loaded question. I mean, I think that yeah, I mean, I think obviously, from a financial side of things, it's a healthy time. I think that within the regards to that, there's also I think the models of how people are paid, I think that they're not fair and equitable, right, like songwriters, artists who are on older deals. I think that there's obviously issues in regards to that part of it. But I think as far as, like, giving, if you're an independent artist, all of the tools are at your disposal to give you more of an even playing field than I've ever experienced since I started working at Interscope in the mid-90s. I think the ability to be heard and be seen exists in a way that you don't - there's not as much gatekeeping.
But I think you really have to out-hustle everybody and understand all the different aspects and all the different levers that you can pull and be even more of your own advocate now than you ever had to be. Because there's so many opportunities for people to music out. So there's like, I hate to answer your question with a non-answer, but like, it's both healthy and it's also both frustrating. At the same time, because I think that there's more money to be made than ever if you're any sort of music creator, but it's a lot harder to make that money because there's a lot of people trying to do it at the same time. So yeah, pros and cons.
[Ritch Esra]: Yeah, I totally agree with you.
[Eric Knight]: Evan, what are the biggest misconceptions new artists, songwriters, producers have when starting their music careers?
[Evan Bogart]: That anybody's going to do anything for you. I mean, people are only gonna hustle as hard as you hustle. And you got to set the vision; you got to articulate your vision for what you're trying to be. And be really clear about it, even as a songwriter. Like, I'm such an advocate for songwriting, branding, and people are like, What is that? And I'm like if you're saying yes to everything, then no one knows what to bring you. And you're, like, not great at one thing if you really can understand who you are and what you're great at and who you're talking to, like who are your fans, right? As a songwriter, your fans are artists, right? Like you're marketing yourself to the artist's community to want to use your songs, the artists, fans, or fans, right? And so, I think you have to understand who your target audience is, who your demographic is, and who you are. And then really drill down on that. Really paint that picture for people. And do it yourself and then build the right team, build the right village around you, who is aligned with your vision.
[Ritch Esra]: Do you find that that's a factor in a lot of the writers that you start with? I mean, somebody can be incredibly talented as a writer, but not know the things that you're that you just spoke about? Do you find that that's something that you're facing within? Because you're on the front lines of this, you and your company? Yeah. In dealing with this? I mean, is this what you find? That people think somebody else is gonna do it for them?
[Evan Bogart]: Yeah, I think there's still, I mean, even back in the 90s, when I was at Interscope, people thought, like, “I got a record deal. It's all gonna happen for me. Right?”.
[Eric Knight]: That's just the beginning of the journey.
[Evan Bogart]: Now, that's when it starts
[Eric Knight]: You just got to neutral.
[Evan Bogart]: And the same thing goes with songwriters like I just added a publishing deal; it's about to all happen.
[Eric Knight]: Right.
[Evan Bogart]: It's like, “Nah, dude”. Like that publishing company mostly has probably over signed and don't have enough staff to, like, provide for you something that I pride myself on Seeker that we were not, you know, I always say, Can I swear?
[Ritch Esra]: Yeah, of course, you can.
[Evan Bogart]: I always say, “You know, Seeker is, you know, big enough and make a difference and small enough to give a fuck”. And, like, to me, that's like what we always pride ourselves on. But I do think that, like, if you're a songwriter, and you sign with a publisher, you still need to then go work your publisher, it's not the other way around. Like you need to make them realize why they should spend more time on you. You might have the right team around; you might be excited about it. But you still need to figure out how to pull those levers. I mean, there's so many times that I work with a client or writer or producer, and I feel like I want it more than them. Or I feel like I I'm like, “Oh, this is your brand”. And then we're not on the same page. Like they don't realize like what, you know, they have a totally different vision for what they should be doing. I think that I think that goes back to writers not really making sure they align with the people that they choose to work with in the first place are artists, you know, making sure that the record label really understands who they are, as an artist, you find an artist is popping independently. And then major labels come by, and they throw these big offers and big names and big, you know, legacies, and then they sign with a major label. And then the major labels, like say “I don't really like that song, like go back in the studio”, and then they sit for it for a year trying to get I mean, it's I just think that people still get swept up in the, in the business of perception, which is so much of the music industry, amd none of that shit matters.
[Ritch Esra]: Let me ask you something, how has, in your experience and you've been a writer, you've had major hits, you know, with massive stars, Beyonce and so forth In your experience, how has the role of the songwriter evolved over the last decade AND IT HAS evolved from when you started - So can you talk to us about that?
[Evan Bogart]: Yeah, I mean, I think that the songwriter, I think people have realized the songwriters have become kind of like the “artists whispers” in some some circumstances and can be really helpful to the A&R process and really helpful to the production process. And so I think people will put songwriters in roles of executive producing projects, or a lot of artists become really good close with their go-to songwriters. And I think that the respect and by the way, songwriters have always been like that for some reason, people, you know, it became very, producer heavy for a long time, A&R heavy for a long time and I think people realize they need the songwriters to help their artists get the songs over the line.
And think that's come along with you know the DSPS for better or for worse shining a spotlight on the songwriting community, you know, let's we'll take the “whether they pay them properly or not” out of the equation for a second - there is a lot of celebration and love and spotlight that's been put on songwriters from the DSPS. I think that combined with songwriters who have become brands in their own right, and knowing how to work that has put songwriters in a different part of the conversation. I mean, you see that too, from a recognition standpoint, obviously, with my work at the Recording Academy, we were able to get the songwriters and composers' wings stood up. And then from there, we were able to create the Songwriter of the Year award. And I just think that songwriters, and their time has come as far as what they really contribute to the music industry.
[Eric Knight]: Evan, what are you looking for creatively and non creatively in the talent that you sign at Seeker?
[Evan Bogart]: I'm looking for somebody, who really understands who they are. I'm looking for somebody who, when you ask them, who do you want to be when you grow up? Their answer is something that really throws you off, or their answer is like a business or an empire or like a CEO of a tech company or something like that. Because I really want to work with people who think of themselves as something bigger than just a creative talent. I feel like talent doesn't write a song. There's a lot of talented people who can't write a great song. I think it's really about the energy you bring to the room. I think it's about the right combination, the chemistry, chemistry writes songs, energy writes songs, and I'm looking for people who really are above just being talented. I mean, we're past the point of like, you know, a great voice and a three-song demo now, it's like, people really want to see like analytics and levers moved, you know. I think I prefer to ignore the analytics. Maybe I'm in the minority these days. If you have amazing analytics on top of all that cool. But for me, and maybe I'm just lucky enough to have grown up at Interscope in the 90s. And remember what real A&R was. I want to know that you know who you are, you know who your fan base is, you have a clear vision of what you're trying to say and what you're trying to achieve. If it's an artist, I still want to see a live show. I'm like, when I see them live, I don't even care if they're bad. I just want to see what I just want to see how they handle being bad on stage. Right? Like, if they're out there, dominating as a star, but their live show sucks. I'm like, “Sign me up. There's a lot. That means I have something to work with. Right. But yeah, I mean, to me, it's less about analytics. It's less about just having talent. It's more about the intangibles.
[Ritch Esra]: Yeah. And on that note, can you speak to the non-creative? I mean, a lot of the elements you're talking about are non-creative. What about other elements, such as, you know, values and work ethic and those kinds of things? A lot of times people don't speak about that - they’ll speak about either the talent or the writing or even like you were saying the metrics, can you because I'm asking you because you're the CEO of a company that is on the frontlines signing this kind of talent, you're putting time money, energy commitment, behind people like this. And I know in your criteria, there must be - even if it's not articulated - a sense of questions that you're not even asking them, but that you're observing about them in terms of their character as people.
[Evan Bogart]: That’s very perceptive.
[Ritch Esra]:. Thank you. And I think it's important so what those qualities are that you are looking for in people?
[Evan Bogart]: When I first meet with the writer I first of all have to love the music that's not just from a writer or a /producer or an artist that also comes down to our strategy for catalog acquisition, I have to love the music first. If I don't connect with it, if my team doesn't connect with it, I don't care how good they are, who wants to sign them it's not for us. It's up for somebody that's fine. It's just not for us. After that, I really want to understand if I am aligned with their vision and whether we have the right strategy uniquely at Seeker for their vision if we're aligned and we uniquely can deliver on that. That goes again for signing and for catalog acquisition. At that point, obviously, we see if a deal can make sense. But in the first two parts of it I spend a lot of time. When it's a writer or producer or artist I spend a lot of time with them getting to know them like it's important to me that I understand they have a good head a head on their shoulders. I want to know that. I want to get a good sense that they're in a good place. I have these things that you know. I've been sober for 18-plus years. And sobriety is a huge part of my story and my success and, also being of service. And I want to know that people, people don't have to be sober. But I want to know that there there is a level of service and selflessness that's part of their story, too. I want to know that they're thinking holistically about their health and their mental health and the balance between work-life balance. It's hard for me when I sit with someone, and they're like, “I work seven days a week, 20 hours a day, I had no sleep, no hashtag no sleep”. I'm like, “That's not for me, you and me, like, and I actually have this thing called Secret Family Values, which I circle internally to always tell the team. There's things on there that are like I would never offer a deal to someone I wouldn't sign myself or when you're doing catalog acquisitions. You know, I have certain rules around like - making sure people feel comfortable that they don't feel like they're being taken advantage of or understanding their intent. I want to know why they're trying to sell their catalog. It's important to me. Like is their team pushing them into it, but they don't really want to, are they desperate for money? Are they bad with money? Do they have an addiction issue? Am I contributing to that by giving them millions of dollars? These things matter to me personally. And so when I'm going to start a company that I feel like it’s an extension of my values. And in my culture, and I want to build a community that feels something of a community, people I want to hang out with, these were important things, because I know, because checking a lot of these boxes means they're right for Seeker Music’s culture. It may not mean they're right, they may be humongous stars, or maybe a catalog that's earning $5 million a year MPS (Music Publishers Share). It's just not right for us, you know, for a number of reasons. Again, third, thirdly, about whether the deal makes sense for us, which I think is a differentiator between us in the marketplace, as a publisher, as a label, and as a catalog acquisition vehicle.
[Eric Knight]: I think that's wonderful that you talk about that, because that's one of the big things with us here MUBUTV is trying to teach that holistic approach because it is about mental health. It is about you know -Is your family, you know, is your family, you know, that work-life balance that you're talking about. so crucial.
[Ritch Esra]: Yeah, absolutely. And also the values that the person has, you know, you spoke about sobriety, and you know, I've been sober for 32 years.
[Evan Bogart]: I love it. Yeah. And We're having a meeting right now.
[Ritch Esra]: Exactly!
[Eric Knight]: We got chips coming out at the end of this.
[Evan Bogart]: They say to people, right?
[Ritch Esra]: Exactly!
[Ritch Esra]: And here we are, the two people. But you said something very important Evan which is “That sobriety was a very, very important part of your life and your success”.
[Evan Bogart]: Let me clarify that - Not only business success, but life success. I met my wife in sobriety. I actually got married in sobriety, divorced and sobriety remarried in sobriety, I have a child in sobriety. I have amazing relationships with my family, amazing relationship with my parents, my in-laws, like, I know how to have great friendships, meaningful friendships, I've learned a lot about myself and sobriety, I've worked through my father's passing and there's been hard times It's not like there's never been down years as a songwriter, there has been, it's not like, everything's been hunky dory. Like, I know how to deal with it when it happens, I've learned about meditation, I've learned about physical health, I've lost a lot of weight, like almost 100 pounds like it for me. And I even did a podcast - a short-lived, it was caught and killed by the pandemic. But it was a short live podcast, me and Sarah Hudson did a podcast called Right to the Source, which was basically on the creators not just music creators, creators in general and mental health and balance and spirituality and the role it plays in the creative process and things like that. And, I've really got in tune with that. And I think that that it's more than just financial success. But with that came financial success.
[Ritch Esra]: Yeah.
[Evan Bogart]: Eventually.
[Ritch Esra]: That was the foundation, right?
[Evan Bogart]: Yeah.
[Ritch Esra]: You see a lot of people who, you know, their life is a mess, and their lives are reflective of that commitment, you know, if there's not the commitment there for themselves, their life and all the aspects that you've just spoke of becomes reflective of that as well.
[Evan Bogart]: I think that's the case. I mean, I think that you know, not everybody is sober so this probably doesn't apply to everybody, but it's no secret that “when you put your sobriety first and you know, and I think that's something that it's sometimes it's hard when you get so busy to remember to do but it's for me, the only way that I've been able to survive and live the life that I've been given.
[Ritch Esra]: I want to ask you something on some of the things we've been talking about given the realities of the marketplace today. How important do you feel it is for artists, songwriters, and producers that you are going to get involved with at Seeker to become really educated about their chosen career path and really know the market of today and the business?
[Evan Bogart]: I think it's crucial. I mean, I think you have to know this to be able to it do yourself in order to - by the way, I always suggest that every creative I work with, I'm like, “Do it yourself”. So that you know if your team is doing it, right, like, try it yourself first, like, instead of just hiring people to do stuff for you, and then you never learn how to do it yourself, right? So like, do it yourself, and then find somebody who does it better than you that you could then help articulate that too. But I think nowadays, it was funny. I met with this kid who was like, he just got signed to Atlantic, but he was like, 18, 17 when I met with him, and I was like, “Man, isn't it so tiring? You have to go on TikTok every day. You have to post a new video and like, then you got to put it on reels and like YouTube shorts. And like, you got to keep going like, man, that's exhausting, right? He was like, “No”. and I'm like, “It's not”. And he was like, “No, You know, something different. This is all I know. This is normal to me. Okay, cool. So if you're an artist, today, you're competing with that. You're competing with kids who know nothing but how to pull every lever at their disposal from as an independent, whether it's socials, whether it's DSPs, whether it's discord, Twitch, whatever it is, right? You're competing with people out there for attention that are nothing but how to do it themselves?
And are it's just normal to them. It's like breathing air. So yeah, I think it's important, it's important that you know, every aspect of your business inside and out. It is important that you understand at least some sort of basic understanding of the business side how royalties are paid with the differences between royalties. Who's what on your team? Like, how can you know if everything is being done right? You’re the the body, it's a company, you're a small business, you're the CEO of that company. If you don't know how every part of that company is run, how can you run that company, that's how you have to look at it. You're an independent artist who just put out your first song, and you are the CEO of your company. Day one.
[Eric Knight]: I want to ask you, and you just spoke about it a little bit, I want if you can expand a little bit more. Another significant factor that we see growing is the need for artists to build awareness for themselves online through the various social media outlets, which are just illustrated with this artist. Is this something that you encourage your acts/artists to do over at Seeker?
[Evan Bogart]: I don't care. Okay. Again, like, again, maybe I'm like, Am I like, Oh, am I like now the old guy, like, I don't care about the analytics. Like, I think that people should use those tools; they should figure out how to make them work for themselves. So if you're like a singer, songwriter, or maybe you're like a blues guitarist, you shouldn't go on to TikTok and start doing like, you know, Dixie, D’Amelio dances, you know, or whatever. That's not you. Don't go on there and be someone else. Be you and use all of these tools to find your people, right, like, they all exist everywhere. So I would encourage them to use all of the tools at their disposal, and I will help them, connect them to people to help them use best practices, show them how to do it, who can help with creating content, so they can do it themselves. You know, like, however, I can help mentor and make connections and be and be the link and the plug for them, I will. Critique them if they want, and I will give them ideas if they want. But at the end of the day I don't care prior to signing them whether they're already doing it. I do want to see that they have a hustle. But that doesn't mean, like, “Oh, well, their hustle is not TikTok. So I'm not signing them”. Like, what if their hustle is they tour they put themselves on the road all year round. And they're able to, like, fully sustain that. And they go off on the you know; they booked their own tours or, you know, they're they're big on Twitch and have a Twitch fan base, or like they're doing discord and web three, like, I'm not going to penalize them because they don't know how to use Instagram like, right. So for me, it’s not what your analytics have been; I just want to see that you are thinking about yourself bigger than just a creator; I want to see that you're thinking about yourself as a business, and that you just need the right village around you to help you get there.
[Ritch Esra]: Speaking of that, I want to go to a sort of a next level with that, as a CEO of a company, there's a significant factor that we see happening, which is that and I guess the question for you is as a publisher, as a label, and as a manager, do you see more opportunities opening up for your artists, writers, and producers in various international markets today? And if so, which ones?
[Evan Bogart]: You know, it's something that we're actually turning our heads to at Seeker right now and that’s a more global strategy, and impact. So we've started to align ourselves with certain people in Latin America, specifically in Mexico, Argentina, Colombia, some people in South Africa, we're talking to the people in India, in, you know, in the APAC territories, I think it's something that's really important. I think that it's something that Seeker, in its infancy, hasn't pivoted into fully yet. We'd certainly have artists that are signed that are European. We have a partnership in Denmark where we've invested in a company there throughout Scandinavia and the Nordics. So we've definitely taken some steps throughout the UK and through Scandinavia. But I can see us pivoting more into other markets in the second half of this year, not even from a signing standpoint, but also catalog acquisition and exploitation standpoint; it's something that's really important to us as a company. And I've worked with writers from all over the world for many years, and myself have traveled the world to write songs. And I know obviously, how much music travels, I always tell people the story about how one time I went on tour with David Guetta back in the day, and it was like, 2011, or something. And we were puddle hopping in like Mediterranean cities. And I would go out in the crowd when people perform, and everybody would be singing along. And if you listen really carefully, it's all gibberish. Like, they don't understand the lyrics because melody travels, right? They all know the melodies of the songs, and they're just making up the words they don't understand. So I really know how much music travels, and I know, I know how much how important it is. I think it is important. And I think it's something that Seeker’s just starting to scratch the tip of the iceberg on.
[Eric Knight]: Sticking with that international tone with this question. Are there certain International Music markets that you see that are more open to new artists than others?
[Evan Bogart]: I don't know if it's like they’re more open to new artists and others, but I really love the stuff that's coming out of Africa right now. I love the AMA piano sound coming out of South Africa. And I really dig and love all the songwriting and stuff that happens in Scandinavia. I have a lot of friends who have broken artists throughout Germany and France. So I mean, I think that there's definitely an easier way to break an artist or get seen in another market. I mean, that's been happening forever. Right? I mean, if you go back to, like, Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears I think it's an exciting time for the global landscape, I think there's a lot of really cool sounds finding its way. I mean, it'd be a lot, obviously; Latin music is taken over, everywhere. But I think it's, I think global music is finding its way into everyday pop music now, too, which is great.
[Ritch Esra]: Very much so. So we've touched on this before in this conversation, but I want to go a little deeper with it and ask you sort of a personal, professional question which is What holds people back from success?
[Evan Bogart]: Ego. I mean, there's probably a few other things. But the first thing that comes to my mind is not being open to new opportunities and closing yourself off and caring; I think, as an artist, caring too much about what other people are doing. And I would say probably close second is fear. I've been a victim to it as well. I mean, like, as a songwriter, you know, like, it's, you're in basically the business of rejection. Right? Everything you write is never good enough. And it's hard, sometimes. It's hard to push through the rejection, and be resilient, and continue to build and believe in yourself. And then it's hard when things are popping for you to not get lost in your own sauce, you know, and to NOT buy into what somebody said, like, “Don't suck your own exhaustion”. I think it's hard not to do that, too. I think you have to stay grounded and continuously connect with the music and connect with new people making music and be open to new opportunities. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think ego and fear probably. Was that the right answer?
[Ritch Esra]: It's your answer.
[Eric Knight]: It's really a profound question when you think about it.
[Evan Bogart]: That, to me, is what I've seen be the kind of the downfall for a lot of my contemporaries who aren't necessarily still here making music are still relevant in music or doing or, you know, haven't figured out a way to either continuously reinvent themselves in their creative craft or reinvent themselves in other parts of this business. It's; usually they're afraid of taking chances, or they're too…
[Eric Knight]: They're too set in their own ways.
[Evan Bogart]: And they're too good to do that.
[Eric Knight]: Right.
[Evan Bogart]: I've made an entire career out of what I call pivoting. You know, I like to go as far as I can with one thing, and then I'm like, okay, cool. How do I evolve this into the next thing? You know, like, pivot, pivot, pivot pivot. And I think that’s just me being open. And by the way, it's not easy to do. A lot of times, like, with Seeker, right? You're starting from scratch. You're basically saying, “OK, I understand what it's like to be a creative publisher; I understand what it's like to be a creative person. Yes, I've worked as an A&R and a manager in the past, but now I'm gonna go start a brand new publishing company from scratch with institutional money from overseas. And we're gonna start it from day one. And by the way, I'm gonna have to learn how to do catalog acquisition, which I've never done in my entire life. And so I'm going to surround myself with really smart people who went to way more important schools that I went to who know so much more than me, and I have to sit there like a student and learn an entire side of the music industryI didn't know”. But man, I eat that shit up; I, when you have the opportunity to kind of upskill at any point in your career, and somebody's gonna believe in you and push you to do that, I say jump at it. It's scary as fuck, but it's so rewarding at the end. And, you know, four months into Seeker I bought my first catalog. And now I'm teaching other people about catalog valuation. And I love it.
[Eric Knight]: That's amazing you're the next Merck Mecuriadis taking over the world.
[Ritch Esra]: It’s so interesting hearing you say that I remember a conversation I had once with Steve Vai. He was a guest of mine at my UCLA class, and he said the same thing that you just said about learning new things. He said because I was asking him about that. And he said, you know, I was asking him specifically about education because he went to Berkeley, but then dropped out. And I asked him, “What is your opinion on the value of Education? he said, “Well, even now in my life I value it because I am such a curious person. And I'm open to learning new things, you know, not even it to do with guitar playing or music, but new things he said, that's what I think has contributed to my success. And you just stated the same thing; you Evan, are open to learning about catalog.
[Evan Bogart]: Continuously learning.
[Ritch Esra]: Not just writing writing writing writing but open to learning about catalog evaluations. I mean, there's a lot to learn in that. I mean, it's a lot to learn.
[Evan Bogart]: It was a lot.
[Ritch Esra]: And it continues to be a lot.
[Evan Bogart]: It continues to be a lot, And the obviously the landscapes keeps changing, and you know, the value of money keeps changing. I feel like I'm, sometimes I'm playing like Donkey Kong and like they keep rolling barrels at me, and I keep having to like jump over them or smash them with the hammer. but I think that you know, that's a lesson that I try to teach my writers all the time, which is like “Write up in the room”. If you are the best writer in the room, you're not growing. Curate your sessions by having someone in the room that's better at something than you. If you are better at everything, then there's no room to grow in that. So like, maybe you're the best lyricist in the room, but someone in the room is better at Melody than you, or somebody at the room is better at concepts, and you're great. You know, whatever it is. I always encourage them to find a room where somebody in the room is better than you at something and learn from them.
[Ritch Esra]: You know, it's so funny; I remember as you were speaking just now, I was remembering a very, very specific and Powerful interview I once read with Jeff Beck and he said the same thing about that particular subject. he said, I never in my and this is one of the great masters of the 20th century. And that's not an overstatement - he said “ I never learned anything in music or in guitar playing from working with people who were not as good as me”. I always, always strove to work with people who were better than me.
[Evan Bogart]: Yeah. God, I love, I love being in sessions when I just find myself staring at somebody else writing, and I'm like, “Wow, how the fuck are they are they doing that? Like, I'm always so blown away. I love being blown away by somebody in a session. I also love, like, when, that moment hits me, and I'm like running with it you know what I mean? I'm more in awe. You know, when you talk about, like, when I look at “What do I look for in certain talents?” One of those is when I meet people who can do something I have no idea how to do. Right? Like when I meet somebody who's like, “I'm gonna do this, and I have this idea for this project, and I play these instruments, and I can write like this, and I listen to their music, and I'm like “How did they make that? Like, and when I hear stuff that I could write, it doesn't excite me as much. I’m like, “Ah, I can do that, right?
[Ritch Esra]: Right.
[Eric Knight]: You Know, it's the ones that when you hear, man, I wish I fucking wrote that. And you're just like, and that's what helps you Level up.
[Evan Bogart]: By the way, when I went into business, when we started Seeker, when I agreed that catalog acquisition was gonna be one of the main things that we did, my, agreement with my investors was “I’m only gonna buy catalogs of songs I wish I wrote, or projects I wish I worked on, and that's it. I'm passing on everything else”. And they said, “Cool”, because they knew at that point I would give it my creative all. And that statement has remained true. I mean, I'm like, “Oh my God, I wish I wrote those songs. We have to get that. We have to work with that.” That's amazing. You know, like, that gets me excited. Like, I'm buying a record at the store, except for I'm actually buying the record. At the store. The master of the record.
[Eric Knight]: Evan, let me ask you, from your perspective, what's the greatest challenge that you face today in developing artists?
[Evan Bogart]: I think it’s that there’s a lot of noise out there, right? It's like, I think it's helping them (songwriters, artists and producers), by empowering them to use all the tools at their disposal -l like we spoke about, and helping them stay grounded. Helping them understand that sometimes it's not gonna happen overnight. And to stay the course. I mean, man, it's a lot of like, it's a lot of like mental ninjaing that goes on, you know? And, I think that being a music creator myself gives me an advantage because I have felt all of the fomo (fear of missing out) and anxiety and fear and rejection and frustration that all of these music creators have felt.
I have felt it over and over and over again. And I've figured out ways for myself to, mentally ninja my own mind. And so I think it's a lot about the managing people, helping them manage themselves, you know, I think from a business standpoint, it goes back to trying to cut through the clutter and trying to find levers to pull that make people pay attention. Like I said, “It's a lot easier to get your music heard, that makes it a lot harder to get your music heard.” Yeah. Because there's a lot of people getting their music heard Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so there's a pro and a con, to the creator economy that we live in.
[Ritch Esra]: Evan, I wanna talk about a new project for you. You just finished supervising all the music for a film that I know is very personal to you based on your father's life, the legendary Neil Bogart of Buddha, and Casablanca Records entitled Spinning Gold. And I wondered if you could tell us about that experience.
[Evan Bogart]: Oh, yeah, man. Like, this is a movie that we've been talking about in our family for 20 years. You know, my brother Tim is in the film business. He is a writer, producer, and director. He’s done a lot of independent stuff prior to this. But, you know, at a certain point in the process, he decided he had written the script for this, and he decided he was gonna end up directing it in 2018. We started setting it up in 2019, we started filming it in 2020. There was a pandemic. In 2021 we finished filming it. I mean, and this is something that, like, when it got first announced in 2010 or 2011, it was like Justin Timberlake was gonna play my dad, and Spike Lee was directing. You know, so it's taken a lot of various forms since then, but it's, exactly what it was supposed to be. That's the best way to say it. People ask me, “Is it what you thought it would be?” I don't know what I would think it would be. There were so many different versions of it over time, but when I watch it now, it's exactly what it was supposed to be. And I think it's a true celebration of my father and his love and passion for artists and for the music and for the music business. And also, a bit of self-reflection on things that we all think about in life as far as like, you know, work life balance and relationships with family and women and men or whatever your orientation is. And I think that, you know, my dad definitely has had his demons, you know, he passed away young at 39 years old. You know, there's that whole scene in the movie. I know you guys have seen it, but like the whole scene in the movie where he's talking about Lenny Bruce, and he's talking about, Lenny dying young and having it all. And then Joyce, the character, who plays my mom, says, “No, I think it'd be great to be old, live, die old and have it all, you know, then it'd be worth it”. And I think, we, all struggle with some of that sometimes, you know, like the immediate gratification of things. And, and so I think there's a lot of really human threads in there. It's not just the Casablanca Records story, you know, it's a lot about the human that was Neil Bogart, but part of that was his, unbelievable, relentless and fearless ability to dream and to, and to show artists how to dream bigger than they could ever imagine. And I think that comes across in, such an amazing way. I think my brother really nailed that. I'm just proud of it.
I'm proud of the whole thing. You know, I ended up executive music producing it and I brought in Harvey Mason Jr. to do all the music on the production side. I ended up getting a chance to score the movie with my composer partner, Justin Gray. And we did this whole original score for it as well. And I even wrote two original songs in the movie, including the end title song, which was fun to do. Yeah, honestly, it's, been a long journey, but it's been so worth it.
[Eric Knight]: Let me ask you as a sidebar to that, cuz when we watched it, me and Ritch, when we went to go to the screening, we noticed that there was obviously a lot of remakes done of the songs. Yeah. Ladisi, I think Jason Derulo, they did a great job in the film. My question is, was that by conscious choice that you guys were doing the Covers?
[Evan Bogart]: That was a creative decision from Tim. I think at a certain point, he was like, I wanna show where dad discovered… how dad broke these artists. Everybody already knows what they are now. We've all grown up on their music already being stars. Right. None of us know the moments, the hard work, or the risk that it took to get there. And so he wanted to show that the Neal character and my dad was, had this belief in these artists and, and really, laid it all on the line for them.
And those moments of discovery, you can't play the original master because they wouldn't have the original master. I mean, even if you pay close enough attention to the KISS makeup, it evolves through the movie. Because the KISS makeup evolved. It's not the final KISS makeup that we knew when they were stars until the end when you see Peter Performing Beth. But like prior to that, it's like what the KISS makeup was like when he had them play at the Century Plaza Hotel when he first started Casablanca. It wasn't what it became like. There's a lot of detail paid attention to like the infancy versions of things and as they evolved and as they grew as, as the label grew. And so you wouldn't see Bill Withers performing an original master of Lean On Me outside on the rooftop of the Fountain Blue Hotel. That would just be weird. You have to have a live version of it. So we cast some of today's artists as the artist from yesteryear, and we cut new versions with them and have them put a little bit of their spin on it, you know, so like Pink Sweats played Bill Withers and Wiz Khalifa played George Clinton, Jason DuRulo played Ron Eisley, and Ledisi plays Gladys Knight, and, uh, Sam Harris from Ex Ambassadors as Paul Stanley. Right. Alex Gas, Garth from All Time Lowe is Peter Chris. And so, you know, it was a lot of fun casting them and, of course, Taylor Parks, who I think is just incredible as Donna Summer
[Ritch Esra]: No, you know, it's so interesting hearing you speak about that because, as you were saying, so many of the songs and artists are iconic, and they're, they're, I guess, what you call cultural institutions throughout our lives and throughout, you know, that period of time.
[Evan Bogart]: Yeah, you know, So and have inspired so many other artists.But I just think it was, it was a smart move, I think it was the right decision. It's not like we saved any money. Those licenses still cost. It wasn't a cost-saving situation. The publishing side of those licenses still were a fortune. I think it was an artistic choice to show them their demo versions, the live versions, the studio versions; to show the versions when they were created, as opposed to the versions that we all have heard a thousand times.
[Ritch Esra]: You know, staying on this theme. I'm curious, throughout your life, have there been any movies or books that have been particularly inspiring to you professionally speaking that you can recommend to our audience?
[Evan Bogart]: I read a lot of like sci-fi, so I'm just, it's not, it's not really, I'm like a massive Harry Potter fan. I mean, people who know that, but in fact, people thought when I, when it called the company Seeker, they thought it was a reference to Harry Potter Quidditch (A fictional sport invented by author J.K. Rowling for her fantasy book series Harry Potter. It first appeared in the novel Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (1997). It is a dangerous but popular sport played by witches and wizards riding flying broomsticks.), but it wasn't. Let me think, I really love Malcolm Gladwell's books. I'm a huge Malcolm Gladwell fan, and in fact, I'm also a huge fan of his, Revisionist History his podcast as well. So all of those, you know, blank outliers, like all of them. Right.
I love the Four Agreements. I'm a big fan of that book. I try to live by the Four Agreements. I think out of all of them, like being impeccable with my word, is one that I really hold close to, my chest, my heart. But yeah, all seven Harry Potter books.
[Ritch Esra]: Nice.
[Eric Knight]: We're gonna Have those all on the description of everybody.
[Evan Bogart] I'm a huge fan of horror novels. I'm a big fan of HP Lovecraft's early writings, and I know how much that inspired a lot of today's sci-fi and filmmakers like, you know, JJ Abrams and Guillermo del Toro. I honestly think the Malcolm Gladwell books really inspired me a lot. And, and really changed the way I thought about things and I think, and also the Four Agreements.
[Eric Knight]: Evan, for someone who is interested in a career in A&R, music publishing or management, what steps do you think they should be taking for themselves?
[Evan Bogart]: Wow. I mean, they're like different ways to get into the business for each of them, although I view them all as the same job. I think it all starts with finding music that you love or an artist that you love and championing them, right? Like, and learning all of, just like when we said if you're, if you're a creator and you have to learn all the parts of the business, I think one of the things that's really been helpful to me is, look, I went to Interscope Records University for college, and then I got my masters in being a manager and a booking agent before I became hit songwriter, and I think that's all helped me as a hit songwriter. Having worked at a record label on both the A&R and marketing side, having been a manager of artists, producers, and writers, and having worked as a booking agent prior to being my own business. I think learning all the aspects of the industry and how they work and, how each lever you pull dominoes into another one. Right. Like if I'm working with an artist as an A&R as a manager, or as a publisher, like if I get my artist a sync, what do I do with that? Right. Okay. So I've gotten my artist song into a TV show. What do I do with DSPs? What do I do with socials? If the song's not out yet, how do I distribute it? Like, I think it's important to understand all, as much of the, how the industry works and how it works with each other, how it's intertwined. Because I really think it's never been more intertwined than it is now. And I think that it's a shame. I think some people have a moment, and they don't know what to do with it. And so I think education is everything.
Mentorship is everything. Learning is everything. Reading is everything. There's a probably a million books on the music business. I think there's even more, and probably even better, ways of learning about that through podcasts. I find myself listening to a lot of music business or industry or tech podcasts to learn new things more than I, more than reading these days, driving around in LA, Right? But I think that trying to absorb and learn, say, you know, and, and be around people that you can learn from is crucial. Cause you have to know when one lever pulls the other. Otherwise, how can you be of service to anybody that you're being of service to.
Right.
Ritch Esra]: Evan, I want to sort of turn that question around and ask what are the most important pieces of advice that you can offer for artists or producers or songwriters who are looking to have a successful career in today's business?
[Evan Bogart]: There's so many, there's so many pieces of advice that I would give people. I think finding your people, you know! I think community is really important. Community is going to make the creator process easier, but it's also gonna make you feel like you're doing, you're not alone when you're doing this. Finding other people that are coming up and just building community. I mean, like, to me, that's like basic 101 in my opinion is, finding other like-minded people that are out there doing this and building a friend, friend group, within music because it can be really lonely out there. Trying to cut through, you know? Then I think from there, that community will beget opportunities. Probably your manager or like people who wanna like write for you and look out for your fans. Those people are gonna come to shows if you're if you're playing live music, those people are going to help you. Maybe one's a mixer and one's a photographer, and one's a producer. Like, you'll end up collaborating with them. I think it's really all about these days finding your community.
[Eric Knight]: Evan, where can people best connect with you and Seeker Music?
[Evan Bogart]: I guess through our website and through our socials. There's, you know, contact info on all those places. You can also like, I don't know, DM me; I get bored on the weekends and start listening to people's demos that they DMd me. People send me songs all the time. They're like, check out my music. I listen to a lot. I don't always respond, but I listen to a lot, Right? There are certain things that like really pique my interest, and I'll be like, who are you? And, like, I'll try to find out more. But, yeah, I don't know. Just reach out, I guess.
[Ritch Esra] Beautiful. Evan, we want to thank you so much for doing this.We really appreciate It
[Evan Bogart]: Thanks for having me. Yeah.
[Eric Knight]: Thank you really.
[Evan Bogart]: Exciting being here.
[Ritch Esra] Really, really, really appreciate it.
[Evan Bogart]: Yeah. Thanks.
[Ritch Esra] Thank you.